Severe Expansion Penalty

In the 84p map you have a choice of how you want to expand. You can either

a) Expand slowly but indefinitely building, upgrading and maintaining propaganda offices

b) Expand fast but deliberately, only conquering select provinces that give you either victory points or resources

c) Only expand until the expansion penalty is too severe to expand anymore. This is the point where you can either stop your expansion or transition into a)

d) Expand quickly and indiscriminately, conquering everything in your path. If you have the units to leave behind low morale won't matter except for resource production and even if you leave the provinces open it won't matter if there are no enemies left for the revolted provinces to bolster.

e) A mix of the above, depending on the situation

To sum up, you have many options. What will get you killed is, not considering them.

In my honest opinion, there are two reasons that justify the current expansion penalty: a mechanical one and an historical one.

Mechanical reason: it's intended for the player to consolidate territories (via moving HQ and building/upgrading Propaganda Offices in provinces) taken before continuing expanding. TGW, as a game, will lose the reason for exist if allows players to conquer all the map, without neither support from their allies nor problems. Of course, conquering the whole map is still feasible, but it will have to be step-by-step. Also, I know the enemy may possibly move swiftly to take as many territories as possible, however, if you just take the territories enough to avoid your opponent victory, in the long term you will be able to get the upper hand with a well-prepared army.

Historical reason: Conquering territories in WWI (especially in the Western Front) are all but motives to enhance morale in the troops. It wasn't only to take a trench: it was also to defend that mile gained against the enemies counterattacks. And that would mean more dead, disappeared or, what worse, wounded, impaired soldiers. So, considering all the horrors of the war, troops were not interested in gaining trenches after bloody battles: they only wanted to go home. Thus, the apparently humongous disproportion of the expansion penalty in the match only looks to portray a simulation of the terrible conditions in the battlefield as realistic as possible.

Greetings.

I agree with both these gentlemen lol plus try to play with level 70 or distinguished players and mods who know a lot about the game I learned a way to ignore expansion penalty from Mr dutch when I started playing ;p now I am making my own breakthrough.

Was playing Flanders front and here is the after math:




Here is the morale view after day change when the points update and we won:

(Note: All that deep red is at 0 morale. Also my capital which was at 100 morale before day change dropped to 65%)

And lastly, the magnitude of just how bad it can get:

The expansion penalty maxed at -200.
And I think the Distance to Capital was also maxed out at -80.

Quote from Arcorian

Popularity is still a topic in the office. Something that helps to avoid getting overwhelmed by morale issues is to not rush through another country. Rather assimilated enemy provinces slowly. Since Moral also has a major impact on the productivity of your provinces, you are at risk to start a negative chain reaction if your country grows too quickly and/or gets too big. Also keep in mind, that you can move your capital to a more centered province. That might help you as well.

My question is how can you afford to go so slowly, at least on the 84 player map. The game ends in two weeks. You need 1000 points for a solo victory. Also expansion penalty doesn't drop as you assimilate your new territories. So the only solution I'm finding is to spam Propaganda offices.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a game only lasting 2 weeks, way less time investment/commitment, which suits my tastes better, but actually winning before time runs—the game seems balanced to make that difficult or impossible. I'll certainly try for it. We'll see what I can do in this game I'm playing now.

And Lastly, does moving your capital/headquarters make morale drop in your home provinces? Or would that only happen if the distance to the capital got to high?

Quote from OuterRim

My question is how can you afford to go so slowly, at least on the 84 player map. The game ends in two weeks. You need 1000 points for a solo victory. Also expansion penalty doesn't drop as you assimilate your new territories. So the only solution I'm finding is to spam Propaganda offices.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a game only lasting 2 weeks, way less time investment/commitment, which suits my tastes better, but actually winning before time runs—the game seems balanced to make that difficult or impossible. I'll certainly try for it. We'll see what I can do in this game I'm playing now.

And Lastly, does moving your capital/headquarters make morale drop in your home provinces? Or would that only happen if the distance to the capital got to high?

Thank you for your feedback OuterRim. Please keep us posted on your experiences as it helps us tweaking the game. Winning a game round is supposed to be challenging, but not impossible. We are monitoring game rounds and result and have mentioned goal in mind and might change win conditions in case we notice that it is too hard.

In terms of moving your capital and the effect on the morale of key provinces. Morale in those provinces may decrease, depending on the distance to the new capital. On the other hand other provinces are likely to be much closer to the new capital than before and their morale will benefit from it.

Hey OuterRim, what you might not be aware of (correct me if I'm wrong) is that when the timer runs out the person with the most victory points wins, no matter if they reached the 1000 point limit or not. So it's not a race against the clock but against your fellow players, which is what the game is about anyway.

Akiar , Yeah I'm aware of that. Just looking to achieve victory by battle, merit, and conquest, not by default of running out of time. Haha.

Arcorian , Thanks for the info and I'll be sure to share more if I have suggestions. Thanks.

I did actually have another couple of questions about Morale and Expansion penalty.

First, morale: How does the game calculate the trend? My current guess is this. You start with a base 100, and the penalties subtract from this. So the trend will even out at the sum value of if influences if the positive and negative influences don't change. Is that correct?

And secondly: Expansion penalty. I have heard talk about expanding to fast causes this. Does that mean it will diminish over time? If I stop expanding will the penalty drop? Or does it just continue to build and your just supposed to build propaganda offices to counter it—or suffer the penalty?

Thanks.

Hey OuterRim,

Morale is calculated by an algorithm that is unfortunately too complicated to explain here but the premise as you explained it, holds true. Positive and negative influnces have an impact on the calculation, they just don't translate one to one.

The expansion penalty does indeed rise based on the amount of provinces you own, as Cycle9 pointed out. What people most likely mean by "expanding slowly" is to build propaganda offices before conquering further provinces which slows down your advance.

The expansion penalty combined with the distance to the capital penalty has turned my war game into a "morale management" game. I will not play another Frontier Pioneer game again. Historical recreation is not why I play, this is a war game. It is not a morale management game.

what are yall talking about when you say "propoganda" offices and second

Quote from Colonel__Ski

The expansion penalty combined with the distance to the capital penalty has turned my war game into a "morale management" game. I will not play another Frontier Pioneer game again. Historical recreation is not why I play, this is a war game. It is not a morale management game.

part of war irl and in a good game will bee the managing of morale as that is part of war

Quote from PLAYtoWIN

what are yall talking about when you say "propoganda" offices and second

part of war irl and in a good game will bee the managing of morale as that is part of war

Indeed. There is a morale management because a good general finds ways to keep their soldiers' moral high. It's an essential part of a war game.