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  1. #11
    LOL, Ixidon, I could not imagine you mean the counter idea seriously...

    So it would count all GM used against me.
    But

    1. The only instance I can think of where GM is used directly against someone, is by what first was named "master spies", and now is called "perform instant action", on the espionage screen.

    All other GM used could be assumed as being GM used in "relation to a war with you", since this is a war game - there is really nothing else but war going on on the S1914 map - and technically, as long as only one can win, everyone is at war with all others. So all GM used by all other players in a round is ultimately used against me.

    2. What do you mean would be the reward? The e-cookie, e-salute, e-monument? Now this idea is very funny, makes me (friendly) laugh...
    What it basically means is that there would be a column on my Service Record showing the aggregate number of how much GM have been used, not by myself, in all the rounds I played.
    (It would not show a ratio of how much GM was used by my opponents divided by how much was used by me.)

    And you mean there shall be some players who would find their enjoyment of the game in competing in this category - The contest of who provoked the highest GM-spending.
    (Note that if there is no ratio to my own spending - which, incidentally, could be zero - the GM-spending would be just as instrumental for success in this category as in the proper game itself, or I'd say even more - there is no better way to provoke GM-spending than GM-spending.)

    Again, I did not suppose you meant this idea seriously, Ixidon, but I do suppose we share the same sentiment, as I am assured there are thousands others - those that have enjoyed S1914 but left it because of how it has developed. (Such as myself. I am only here on a sporadic visit.)

    This was discussed on this forum in 2010-11 and in all my temporary revisits through the years (The forum used to be very lively compared to what I see in a glance now.) This OP is a "modern" expression of the same sentiments.

    Bytro has made two games with the same name.

    S1914 (without GM)

    and

    S1914 (with GM)

    It must be realized that these are two different games, Bytro made them both, but they have never existed simultaneously, although there has been only a gradual transformation from the one to the other.

    I spoke against GM-shaming. If you play the GM-game, you must accept that players can use it. There it no way to decide what is a "reasonable" use. People would quarrel about who used it moderately and sensibly and who used it "too much" and "cheatingly". Nonsense!

    Look! Today, for my little casual revisit to S1914 - for the first time ever, except for one or two useless misclicks - I used GM! 1,500GM for two instant spy intel missions. It meant I changed my orders and I could reassess my complete strategical outlook. It has decided my middle-term route of action.
    Even a "moderate" use of GM makes S1914 into a different game. Just the fact that someone might use it makes S1914 into a different game - changes what I can plan and expect.

    For my part, I do not like the game S1914 with GM, but it does not mean it makes sense I should come on here accusing users of GM in the game S1914 with GM.

    I certainly do not blame Bytro for making as much money as they can. But what we are questioning is whether they would not gain more from making use of both the games they have created. Make a clear separation between the two games.

    1. "Vanilla" and "free to play" would be S1914 with GM.
    2. For the S1914 original there would be an entrance fee, such as "gold round".
    Since Bytro has already made both games, it seems a waste to just scrap one of them.

    The S1914 original rounds I expect would attract only the minority, and they might not be as profitable for Bytro as the S1914 free rounds (with GM), but the alternative is only that the S1914 original would-be crowd is simply not here at all.

    I repeat: There is no obligation incumbent on Bytro to provide the world with a game we want, for free. But I wonder whether it has been duly assessed whether there is not a market for S1914 original alongside S1914 free. Since they already made both games, why not use them both?

    What used to irritate me, is how people on this forum seemed to believe in the "moderate GM-spending" idea, carefree of whether they could define the "moderate" use other than that their own use was appropriate, but other's use is "cheating".

    That is why I was a bit uncourteous earlier in this thread, and I accept I was censored.
    Fair enough.
    I hope I will not be censored this time, though.
    Last edited by Hr Vilhelm Ekelund; 01-12-2018 at 05:27 AM.

  2. #12
    Well, it was mostly posted as a joke, but I didn't see the problem exploring it in a more serious manner, despite its most likely futility. :P

    So yeah, I agree that there are some serious holes in it.

    As I mentioned before, I agree with the idea of GM-free rounds (not tournament style though), that just need a big, fat GM entry fee, but sadly, I think the math are against us.

    I have no access to Bytro's revenue, but it seems that the GM-spamming tends to be extreme quite frequent.
    In my last war in my last map, I was fighting 3 nations. One of them was a moderate spammer (~ 150GM), the other though reached some insane lvls - at least 350-400K GM!
    With the best offer in the GM shop you get 360K for 100€. And this was not even a big map lol. Lastly, these were just those that I observed while being at war with them.

    So, 500K GM spend in one Middle East map (15-30 players, right?). This is not something I experience commonly in 30p maps.

    Based on my general exp (which is rather small, I'll have to admit), I think it's safe to assume that 1000K to 2000K is probably a decent estimation of the GM that are being used in an 100p map.

    So, assuming the price of the favorite offer in the GM shop (64K for 19.99), this translates into 312 to 625€.


    If my estimation is more or less accurate, this translates into 3.12€ to 6.25€

    If this is true, I think Bytro should do their math and introduce this suggested idea, since I'm pretty sure many, many players will be willing to pay 5€-10€ for an 100p map.

    Also, another, potentially better variation of the above idea is to not just charge a flat entry free, but charge a small entry fee + a repeating fee that charges the surviving/active players still left on the map, perhaps every week or every 2 weeks.

    This might raise the costs for those that tend to end top3/5/10 in their maps, but if it will not push away the less skilled players that might get intimidated by a big fee - although, it's fair to assume that skilled/experienced players will assume that they will end in the top 10% of their maps.

    Has this idea ever been discussed in the past?

    I'm not talking about the GM-free maps but about the WAY to charge them (since, in the end, it all settles to what makes Bytro more profitable).

    Forum mods pls answer me this.

    If it has not been discussed, I can make this a new thread, you think it should be posted as a separated suggestion. I can even make you some spreadsheets (for free ^_^ ), although I assume you already have your own people to do this for you.
    Last edited by Ixidon; 01-12-2018 at 01:41 PM.
    "who cares what you believe,"
    Said the captain amazed,
    "if you stood in my shoes
    Your eyes would be glazed"

  3. #13
    Forum mods are volunteers so if we do it it's also for free xd

    Anyway I can't recall anybody stating this way of charging (GM free and have an one time entry fee has however)

    I do however think the assumption is wrong on how many people would be willing to buy in. Free users will remain free users and not spend money. Paying users will rather want to pay for true advantages so won't buy it either. And for sure I wouldn't buy anything if I don't know how much it will cost on the long run (the pay every 2 weeks plan)

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  4. #14
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is a link to spreadsheet me & I NIKAS created in order to show what I(we) were talking about. I think this should suffice to thoroughly explain what I meant in my previous post.

    People (Bytro) can download the file and play around with the numbers.

    As you can see, based on the lvl of earnings Bytro makes per map, this kind of map style can be reasonably cheap for the players while assuring same (if not more) profitability for Bytro, thus I don't see any strong reason for not introducing this into the game.

    I might make a new thread of this, just to promote it separated from this comical thread.


    Any insight or criticism is, of course, welcome!
    "who cares what you believe,"
    Said the captain amazed,
    "if you stood in my shoes
    Your eyes would be glazed"

  5. #15
    Ixidon and Nikias! First you made me (almost) laugh, now (almost) cry. With joy in both cases.

    I must tell you how I got here. I revisit S1914 to see how it's doing now. I search myself on the forum to see where I last left it. I found it was in August 2015, and I had answered to a creative "missing features" thread started by someone called Ixidon... I wonder if he remained active, so I search him on the forum... and lo! He has posted today (Jan 8) -this thread- also after a year-long hiatus,
    Creative younglings indeed, Ixidon and friend Nikias.

    I find it hard to understand your spreadsheet. Could you please give the definitions.

    Is it meant to show an example of a model for your idea of a pay-per-week system?

    Is Fee per week what each (remaining) active player will pay to be in the game?
    Is Cost the expected total income for Bytro from such a pay-per-week round?

    Have you set Cost to $600, based on an assumption that this is what Bytro may expect from a typical 100-player round now?
    Have you then made two proposals for how Bytro could take in this equal Cost from a pay-per-week model?
    With the idea that Bytro would lose no revenue from such rounds in comparison with a typical GM-round?

    Have I understood this right? I am sceptical to the soundness of such a model and the motivation for it, but I shall not venture to criticize until I know if I have understood you correctly.


  6. #16
    Is it meant to show an example of a model for your idea of a pay-per-week system?
    yes

    Is Fee per week what each (remaining) active player will pay to be in the game?
    yes

    Is Cost the expected total income for Bytro from such a pay-per-week round?
    yes

    Have you set Cost to $600, based on an assumption that this is what Bytro may expect from a typical 100-player round now?
    It is set there more of an example so the formula shows some numbers. We also show some results with the cost varying from 250$ to 1.500$. As for the $600, Bytro (and you) can change that if you download the excel file. Every value in a yellow cell can be changed (these are the variables of the model) We just made the model, Bytro will input the data on the variables as we don't know them.

    Have you then made two proposals for how Bytro could take in this equal Cost from a pay-per-week model?
    yes

    With the idea that Bytro would lose no revenue from such rounds in comparison with a typical GM-round?
    yes



    My proposal for this mode is to be implemented as a tourney with the winners receiving a money prize. That way more players will be willing to join as the hype would be greater. Bytro can even set a higher entry fee so they give away the money from the extra income.
    Last edited by I NIKAS; 01-13-2018 at 09:51 AM.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hr Vilhelm Ekelund View Post

    Have I understood this right? I am sceptical to the soundness of such a model and the motivation for it, but I shall not venture to criticize until I know if I have understood you correctly.

    The idea in general is that IF it's possible to match Bytro's average earnings per map through fees, then the GM-free idea is economically viable!

    Since, I don't have access to their earnings, I just made a table with few examples (250, 500, 750, 100,1250, 1500) just to show how this system could be used, based on each different earnings lvl.

    Of course, as you can see in the last 2 examples ($1250, $1500), once earnings per map becomes too big, then the whole idea of distributing your earning through Entry fee & through weekly fees for all remaining players becomes a little bit extreme (meaning not many players will be willing to pay that much money for such type of map).

    On the other hand, if their average earnings per map are less extreme, then I think this idea should attract enough players (both active and retired).

    P.S. Something we forgot to explain in detail.

    The "Fee of 1st Week" is what we call "ENTRY FEE". Meaning, all players will pay it (the map will start only once all player slots have been filled, then the 'entry fee' shall be extracted from all players (in the form of GM)

    The remaining Fee of X Week" is the fee paid by the, then, remaining players. We think that paying a big % of the total earnings(cost) in the start is more fair, that's why we started ranging it from 60% when revenue was low, to 10% when revenue was extremely high.

    I hope this was helpful enough.
    "who cares what you believe,"
    Said the captain amazed,
    "if you stood in my shoes
    Your eyes would be glazed"

  8. #18
    Nice, guys!

    There is a lot to think upon here.
    What's awkward is that we don't have the figures we need to evaluate everything. Someone does have it, and they may just watch us and laugh at us... Well, let's just afford it to them...

    Maybe Ixidon can indeed do a good estimation of how much GM is spent on a round.
    He gives out numbers in this thread, stating how much GM various players spent.
    Some things can be monitored and counted, yes, but not all GM use, and some very hardly.
    This is a policy by the game makers, rest assured - to make it hard to distinguish and expose GM use.

    As soon as GM was introduced it gave occasion to a movement for arranging GM-free games, "by gentleman's agreement". But it is obvious how Bytro has countered this, by introducing:

    Spy intel missions that always and instantly deliver fully, and are not reported to or noticed by opponents.
    Resources directly for GM
    "Commercial offerings" from AIs
    Money and resources from "support our troops" spins

    Since these things cannot be monitored, and not be discerned from very good and active play of the stock market, diplomatic relations, trades and info-sharing (which is, after all, what the original game very much essentially is all about) one must give up any hope to ever know for sure if all players are living up to the "gentleman's agreement". Particularly since these environments typically get to be very competitive and prestige-inflated the suspicions and accusations will always be bubbling up from close under the surface - and probably all too often with good reason.
    It will only function in a group of good friends with some humour and perspective, individuals more interested in "How will this map play out?" than "I must win!"
    From an anonymous crowd one cannot expect to gather a big group of people who will be more interested in finding out how a game of no-GM-S1914 plays out "for me using this my strategy" in this configuration of players as fate has placed us geographically on the map, than to avoid the pain in the shame and frustration of losing.

    Well, I'm sorry... this was just my introduction... but my time is out now for today... Keep on talking here, guys... I'll get back...

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